Tonight, we discussed the bible – Discussion 1

Creation by intelligent design is more logical and reasonable than believing the astronomical complexities of man and his universe are products of mere evolution. Life, indeed, is spontaneous…originating from a beginning point. We believe in that ‘point’ of origin.. though we did not witness it. We ARE its evidence. To conclude that the ‘unseen’ inner man (soul)..as well as all the ‘unseen’ forces or natural laws (physics) began with no catalyst other than coincidence is againt logic and against reason.

We live in a universe too extravagant for coincidental causation. Light/Dark, big/little, up/down, male/female,love/hate, loud/qquiet, wet/dry, hot/cold, old/young, right/wrong, infinity/time, good/evil, life/death, in/out, and so forth….make the concept of God/Heaven and Satan/Hell both logical and reasonable. Each opposite reveals the characteristic of the other by contrast. One does not exist without the other. One is not revealed apart from the other. Logic and reason insist that such conceptual gems are not only by Intelligent Design …but are actually the ‘glue’ which holds together all logic and reason.

Everything we experience was, is, or will be ‘made.’ It is therefore neither logical or reasonable to conclude that things ‘made’ came from things not ‘made.’

Logic, reason, evidence, and so forth can only be understood within the realm of intelligent thought. Intelligent thought being that thought which sees the whole picture. Another word for that type of thought…wisdom.

Thanks for allowing me to comment.

Carolyn

You have amazed me with your inability to actually say anything, despite the length of your statement. While the purpose of my rant was not about refuting creation as science I won’t dissuade you from looking like a fool.

If by “Creation by intelligent design” you mean the belief that a god or being outside of time and space created our universe in spite of the fact that the argument begs the question of who created that being, and even more so what did that being create this universe out of? Your position is faulty on so many levels that you may as well be banging your head against the wall.

I am in no way shape or form trying to call you an idiot, but you have to accept that your own argument is flawed in the same way that your straw-man view of the big bang is. That may or may not be my position, but the creation end of things is certainly not. As for it’s logic, you are about as far off from that as can possibly be. There is nothing logical about stapling the god name tag onto the being you believe set all of this in motion, and for that matter its not even logical to posit that that being exists. The problem is not about WHO created the universe, it is about How it came to be.

The rest of your rant appears to have been a horribly tied chain of mumbo jumbo about opposites and leading up to defining god and the devil into existence because they are opposites, but unfortunately just because I say you are a pink unicorn wearing fuzzy slippers and a scuba tank and respirator does not make it so. You can assert all you want and anything you want, but as soon as you bring it into the public arena and try to make a point to another person you are held accountable for your claims, no matter how absurd they may be. Here you have entered into a discussion about the logical nature of god’s existence and posited that the being you call god created all of this. Both claims are beyond our present understanding of the way things work and as with all other extraordinary claims, I will be waiting here on my haunches for some of that extraordinary evidence.

Finally, a word about wisdom, which I think you are misusing in this context. Wisdom is derived from the term Wise and as such it means a great many things, not many of which mean intelligent. Even if I ignore that though and run with the first few definitions of wisdom from my friend google…

  • accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment
  • the trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight
  • the quality of being prudent and sensible

… these don’t in any way shape or form mean that the person is not wrong. Much about our world, we have come to understand is not only unintuitive, but it is counterintuitive. Much about the ways of old are proven to be not only incorrect but to have been outright impossibilities. No amount of accumulated knowledge, or so called enlightenment, shields any person from being called out on their mistakes or trumped up assertions. There is no reason to act in such a way and I hope that I am never too vain to be corrected, but I will never assert such a silly position as to say that creation is more logical than anything that science has pushed forward from the gloom of ignorance.

My aspiring lawyer pseudo-lover suggested you watch this video. It illustrates things quite well.

  • Good rip on Carolyn’s rant. She provides a good example of the ‘Dunning-Kruger Effect’ in action.

    What Carolyn perceives to be her own ‘wisdom’ is actually that which seems to serve her in place of logic, reason and critical-thinking… and that would be the logical fallacy (flaw in thinking) known as the Argument from Incredulity, a.k.a. the ‘Divine Fallacy’. It goes something like this: “I cannot imagine (conceive)(understand)(fathom) how this might have come to be; therefore… God did it.”

    Bob Heinlein had a pretty good take on this…

    “We define thinking as integrating data and arriving at correct answers. Look around you. Most people do that stunt just well enough to get to the corner store and back without breaking a leg. If the average man thinks at all, he does silly things like generalizing from a single datum. He uses one-valued logic. If he is exceptionally bright, he may use two-valued, ‘either-or’ logic to arrive at his wrong answers. If he is hungry, hurt, or personally interested in the answer, he can’t use ANY sort of logic, and will discard an observed fact as blithely as he will stake his life on a piece of wishful thinking. He uses the technical miracles created by superior men without wonder or surprise, as a kitten accepts a bowl of milk. Far from ASPIRING to higher reasoning, he is NOT EVEN AWARE that higher reasoning EXISTS… yet he classes his own mental process as being of the same sort as the genius of an Einstein. Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal.”

    “For explanations of a universe that confuses him, he seizes onto numerology, astrology, hysterical religions, and other fancy ways to go crazy. Having accepted such glorified nonsense, facts make no impression on him, even if at the cost of his own life. Joe, one of the hardest things to believe is the abysmal depth of human stupidity.” ~ Robert A. Heinlein – Kettle Belly Baldwin in Gulf from Assignment in Eternity